1 00:00:14,910 --> 00:00:12,180 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:17,070 --> 00:00:14,920 with dr. eben Alexander about near-death 3 00:00:19,950 --> 00:00:17,080 experience science and his new book 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:19,960 proof of heaven one of the really 5 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:21,850 fascinating parts of the book is the 6 00:00:26,940 --> 00:00:23,740 professional transformation you go 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:26,950 through you weren't totally unaware of 8 00:00:31,109 --> 00:00:29,650 the near-death experience research but 9 00:00:34,170 --> 00:00:31,119 it was just something that you 10 00:00:36,690 --> 00:00:34,180 completely look past because all your 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:36,700 training had said this is impossible 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:38,890 this doesn't exist so it kind of creates 13 00:00:44,610 --> 00:00:42,130 this blind spot in your medical 14 00:00:47,550 --> 00:00:44,620 knowledge it did require a tremendous 15 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:47,560 amount of Education having been an 16 00:00:52,890 --> 00:00:49,750 academic neurosurgeon for over 20 years 17 00:00:54,810 --> 00:00:52,900 I thought I understood brain and help 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:54,820 range and race consciousness and mind 19 00:01:00,570 --> 00:00:57,850 and soul spirit what-have-you but my 20 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:00,580 thinking was clearly that when the brain 21 00:01:05,999 --> 00:01:03,370 and the body die that's the end of 22 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:06,009 consciousness soul spirit I now know 23 00:01:11,789 --> 00:01:08,770 that's absolutely not true and to get to 24 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:11,799 that point after my experience I really 25 00:01:14,429 --> 00:01:13,329 had to learn a tremendous amount about 26 00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:14,439 consciousness 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:30,050 welcome to skeptic Oh where we explored 28 00:01:34,010 --> 00:01:31,650 controversial science with leading 29 00:01:36,020 --> 00:01:34,020 researchers thinkers and their critics 30 00:01:37,850 --> 00:01:36,030 I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this 31 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:37,860 episode of skeptic oh I have an 32 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:39,930 interview with dr. Evan Alexander 33 00:01:45,050 --> 00:01:42,450 regarding his new book proof of heaven 34 00:01:46,970 --> 00:01:45,060 now as you know this book as well as 35 00:01:49,370 --> 00:01:46,980 this interview has already caused quite 36 00:01:51,830 --> 00:01:49,380 a stir among the scientific and medical 37 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:51,840 communities because number one his 38 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:53,910 credentials are so strong and number two 39 00:01:57,860 --> 00:01:56,160 and maybe this is the main reason he's 40 00:02:00,680 --> 00:01:57,870 really gone there in terms of the 41 00:02:01,310 --> 00:02:00,690 spiritual implications of his personal 42 00:02:03,650 --> 00:02:01,320 NDE 43 00:02:05,450 --> 00:02:03,660 and the broader near-death experience 44 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:05,460 phenomenon and I think that makes some 45 00:02:08,930 --> 00:02:07,200 people very very uncomfortable 46 00:02:11,540 --> 00:02:08,940 I think the spiritual connections are 47 00:02:14,060 --> 00:02:11,550 obvious to anyone who's looked at this 48 00:02:15,950 --> 00:02:14,070 research the science but I think it 49 00:02:18,290 --> 00:02:15,960 still makes people uncomfortable they 50 00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:18,300 like to deal with it on a very sterile 51 00:02:23,630 --> 00:02:21,480 analytical scientific basis and of 52 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:23,640 course dr. Alexander is capable of doing 53 00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:25,290 that and I think does a good job of that 54 00:02:30,620 --> 00:02:27,750 but what's really unique about his story 55 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:30,630 is that he brings his expertise to this 56 00:02:36,110 --> 00:02:33,090 medical mystery and we do have to really 57 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:36,120 start there near-death experience after 58 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:39,930 all is a medical mystery there isn't any 59 00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:43,050 conventional explanation for it and that 60 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:45,390 sends us off into these other directions 61 00:02:53,210 --> 00:02:48,120 that you're going to hear about in this 62 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:53,220 interview with dr. Evan Alexander today 63 00:02:58,130 --> 00:02:55,890 we welcome dr. Evan Alexander back to 64 00:03:00,610 --> 00:02:58,140 skeptic Oh dr. Alexander has just 65 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:00,620 published proof of heaven a 66 00:03:06,590 --> 00:03:03,060 neurosurgeons near-death experience in 67 00:03:08,330 --> 00:03:06,600 journey into the afterlife welcome dr. 68 00:03:11,570 --> 00:03:08,340 Alexander thanks for joining me on 69 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:11,580 skeptic oh well hello Alex and thanks 70 00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:13,110 very much for having me back 71 00:03:19,699 --> 00:03:16,110 well you've written quite a book here 72 00:03:21,380 --> 00:03:19,709 one part medical thriller it really is 73 00:03:24,890 --> 00:03:21,390 and one part near-death experience 74 00:03:27,199 --> 00:03:24,900 science book it's a great read I didn't 75 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:27,209 think neurosurgeons were supposed to be 76 00:03:33,860 --> 00:03:31,410 writers of this caliber well thanks a 77 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:33,870 lot I appreciate it I think you can tell 78 00:03:36,890 --> 00:03:35,730 it's really a story from the heart 79 00:03:41,089 --> 00:03:36,900 because 80 00:03:44,839 --> 00:03:41,099 it's a very personal story and my 81 00:03:50,030 --> 00:03:44,849 experience was absolutely life-changing 82 00:03:52,430 --> 00:03:50,040 in every sense of the word and I mean to 83 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:52,440 me I think a lot of people are most 84 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:55,310 interested when they hear that I had a 85 00:04:01,330 --> 00:03:58,010 profound near-death experience like 86 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:01,340 millions of people have had and 87 00:04:10,059 --> 00:04:04,730 witnessed that ultra reality in that 88 00:04:14,630 --> 00:04:10,069 startling nature of that realm and 89 00:04:17,900 --> 00:04:14,640 because I had bacterial meningitis which 90 00:04:21,199 --> 00:04:17,910 really pretty much turned off the human 91 00:04:23,690 --> 00:04:21,209 part of my brain after I had was 92 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:23,700 recovering and putting the whole story 93 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:26,610 together it started to become very clear 94 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:28,440 to me that there was absolutely no way 95 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:31,020 that it had happened in my brain and 96 00:04:37,490 --> 00:04:33,690 that was based on neuro scientific 97 00:04:39,170 --> 00:04:37,500 principle so as stunned as I was by the 98 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:39,180 nature of the experience and the 99 00:04:45,950 --> 00:04:42,210 ultra-reality when I was waking up from 100 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:45,960 coma my original intent was to try and 101 00:04:50,740 --> 00:04:48,210 explain that based on neuro scientific 102 00:04:53,980 --> 00:04:50,750 principles and then over a few months 103 00:04:57,490 --> 00:04:53,990 and even before I started reading any 104 00:04:59,990 --> 00:04:57,500 near-death experience literature I 105 00:05:02,510 --> 00:05:00,000 realized how sick I was and how it was 106 00:05:06,710 --> 00:05:02,520 really impossible to explain this very 107 00:05:09,950 --> 00:05:06,720 rich experience through the typical 108 00:05:12,260 --> 00:05:09,960 neuro scientific explanations and it 109 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:12,270 really happened and it happened in a 110 00:05:16,270 --> 00:05:14,370 place that's outside of our physical 111 00:05:18,620 --> 00:05:16,280 universe and I think that's what's so 112 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:18,630 stunning and that's why so many people 113 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:21,930 are fascinated by this story absolutely 114 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:24,090 and of course as you just mentioned I 115 00:05:30,050 --> 00:05:26,610 think the other aspect of it that draws 116 00:05:32,690 --> 00:05:30,060 people in of course is your background I 117 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:32,700 mean you would know the answers to some 118 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:34,830 of those questions you have quite an 119 00:05:39,950 --> 00:05:37,770 extensive academic background as well as 120 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:39,960 professional I mean you are a brain 121 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:42,330 surgeon you know as I said you know it 122 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:43,650 doesn't take a brain surgeon well in 123 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:45,180 this case it takes a brain surgeon 124 00:05:49,339 --> 00:05:47,310 you're a professor at Harvard Medical 125 00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:49,349 School for 15 years you're publishing 126 00:05:53,119 --> 00:05:50,639 papers in all 127 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:53,129 medical journals so you are a bona fide 128 00:05:56,899 --> 00:05:55,650 expert in these areas and then if I 129 00:05:59,209 --> 00:05:56,909 can't just fill in a little bit your 130 00:06:01,909 --> 00:05:59,219 story so there you are you're you're a 131 00:06:03,350 --> 00:06:01,919 neurosurgeon you move back to the South 132 00:06:05,779 --> 00:06:03,360 where you're from originally with your 133 00:06:07,159 --> 00:06:05,789 family to kind of slow down a little bit 134 00:06:09,830 --> 00:06:07,169 although you still have a very active 135 00:06:14,330 --> 00:06:09,840 practice and due to this day but then 136 00:06:18,350 --> 00:06:14,340 this incident this spinal meningitis and 137 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:18,360 it's an e coli bacteria which I just was 138 00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:20,610 was stunned I didn't know anything about 139 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:22,830 it but again this book is part medical 140 00:06:26,749 --> 00:06:25,020 thriller so when you read this book and 141 00:06:28,429 --> 00:06:26,759 it's really a great read it's not only a 142 00:06:30,469 --> 00:06:28,439 book you're gonna want to read for 143 00:06:32,149 --> 00:06:30,479 yourself but I really think it's the 144 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:32,159 kind of book you're going to want to 145 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:34,590 give to someone else because they'll be 146 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:37,050 drawn into the story and at the same 147 00:06:43,010 --> 00:06:40,250 time they'll be overwhelmed by the 148 00:06:45,529 --> 00:06:43,020 medical and scientific evidence behind 149 00:06:47,809 --> 00:06:45,539 it but anyways this thing happens to you 150 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:47,819 and I guess one of the parts we could 151 00:06:54,829 --> 00:06:51,810 explore right now as a physician tell 152 00:06:59,179 --> 00:06:54,839 folks a little bit about the medical 153 00:07:01,579 --> 00:06:59,189 miracle of your recovery itself because 154 00:07:03,829 --> 00:07:01,589 taking the in de out of it this is just 155 00:07:07,579 --> 00:07:03,839 an extraordinary medical case isn't it 156 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:07,589 right it's I must say all the physicians 157 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:11,370 and nurses who took care of me were 158 00:07:17,269 --> 00:07:14,490 absolutely dumbfounded that I ended up 159 00:07:18,559 --> 00:07:17,279 making a complete recovery as you 160 00:07:21,189 --> 00:07:18,569 pointed out a minute ago it's very 161 00:07:24,409 --> 00:07:21,199 important to note that it was an e coli 162 00:07:26,689 --> 00:07:24,419 spontaneous ecoli meningitis which in 163 00:07:29,329 --> 00:07:26,699 adults probably has an incidence of 164 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:29,339 around one and ten million per year or 165 00:07:37,279 --> 00:07:34,580 less so it's very rare and that I think 166 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:37,289 has mainly served the purpose of keeping 167 00:07:45,559 --> 00:07:40,110 me focused so that I was not about to 168 00:07:48,439 --> 00:07:45,569 dismiss any of this it's almost like it 169 00:07:52,100 --> 00:07:48,449 was kind of an overkill of forcing 170 00:07:53,959 --> 00:07:52,110 rarity on me so I would not lose track 171 00:07:56,269 --> 00:07:53,969 of how important it was to get to the 172 00:07:59,719 --> 00:07:56,279 bottom of all this the other thing of 173 00:08:02,570 --> 00:07:59,729 course is as I do tell in the in the 174 00:08:03,690 --> 00:08:02,580 book I when I first came down with this 175 00:08:07,260 --> 00:08:03,700 illness which was 176 00:08:08,970 --> 00:08:07,270 November 10th 2008 I became symptomatic 177 00:08:11,870 --> 00:08:08,980 at about 4:00 in the morning and it was 178 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:11,880 very severe very rapidly progressive 179 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:14,350 disease so it started with the back pain 180 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:17,320 and then rapidly to a severe headache 181 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:20,290 and then within about three hours of 182 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:22,720 onset into a grand mal epileptic seizure 183 00:08:28,590 --> 00:08:25,960 that was really not breakable and if you 184 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:28,600 do a literature search you'll find that 185 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:31,930 if someone has a gram-negative bacteria 186 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:35,890 meningitis like I had and they go into 187 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:38,050 coma rapidly and in the literature 188 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:41,050 that's within 24 hours of course I was 189 00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:43,410 so sick I did that within 3 or 4 hours 190 00:08:48,690 --> 00:08:46,030 it turns out that with that history when 191 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:48,700 they get to the emergency room all their 192 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:51,490 mortality is already at 90% from that 193 00:08:56,490 --> 00:08:54,090 illness so I had only a 10% chance of 194 00:08:59,240 --> 00:08:56,500 surviving when I got to the emergency 195 00:09:03,020 --> 00:08:59,250 room and they quickly put me on three 196 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:03,030 antibiotics to try and cover this and I 197 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:05,890 did not respond for several days to the 198 00:09:11,580 --> 00:09:09,730 antibiotics so that 10% survival 199 00:09:16,290 --> 00:09:11,590 estimate when I first came in the door 200 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:16,300 crept towards you know 2 or 3 percent by 201 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:18,610 the end of the week which is the time 202 00:09:23,850 --> 00:09:21,730 when I finally woke up and my physicians 203 00:09:27,450 --> 00:09:23,860 were making it very clear to my family 204 00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:27,460 that even if I did survive it especially 205 00:09:31,230 --> 00:09:29,380 by that point after I've been in coma on 206 00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:31,240 a ventilator for a week 207 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:35,190 that my chances for neurologic recovery 208 00:09:39,570 --> 00:09:38,110 were very limited and that I would 209 00:09:42,060 --> 00:09:39,580 probably spend the rest of my life in a 210 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:42,070 nursing home and so in fact they were 211 00:09:45,930 --> 00:09:43,930 even even at a point of discussing 212 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:45,940 stopping the antibiotics just so they 213 00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:48,490 didn't get caught in that trap where you 214 00:09:52,380 --> 00:09:49,630 know at the end of the day they might 215 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:52,390 have cured the meningitis and yet been 216 00:09:58,280 --> 00:09:54,850 left with somebody in a persistent 217 00:10:01,500 --> 00:09:58,290 vegetative state so it really was a 218 00:10:04,830 --> 00:10:01,510 absolute miracle that I was able to come 219 00:10:08,010 --> 00:10:04,840 back and you're coming back is I can 220 00:10:09,810 --> 00:10:08,020 just stunningly remarkable talk a little 221 00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:09,820 bit about that you do in the book you 222 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:12,310 describe the process but I it's just 223 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:15,130 sounds almost unbelievable that you 224 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:17,500 would recover the way that you did 225 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:20,830 well I will tell you that if if I've had 226 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:23,740 a patient before my coma if you would 227 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:26,430 ask me how much does a patient remember 228 00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:30,010 if they have acute back true meningitis 229 00:10:34,290 --> 00:10:32,140 going to coma within hours it's been a 230 00:10:36,990 --> 00:10:34,300 week on a ventilator and then finally 231 00:10:39,270 --> 00:10:37,000 start to wake back up but your eyes pop 232 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:39,280 open right um and I mean your eyes pop 233 00:10:43,650 --> 00:10:40,870 open and you say take this ventilator 234 00:10:47,010 --> 00:10:43,660 out and you start talking I mean that is 235 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:47,020 also quite amazing right was absolutely 236 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:48,730 stunning and I think it's important to 237 00:10:56,070 --> 00:10:52,720 point out to people that for one thing I 238 00:10:58,800 --> 00:10:56,080 would not expect a person to a patient 239 00:11:02,310 --> 00:10:58,810 to remember anything at all from within 240 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:02,320 that experience and so in fact I was 241 00:11:05,730 --> 00:11:03,970 very shocked because I remembered a 242 00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:05,740 tremendous amount and that's what I tell 243 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:08,020 in my story the other thing that's 244 00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:11,050 crucial to understand is that the 245 00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:13,990 meningitis was so effective at wiping 246 00:11:18,450 --> 00:11:16,000 out the outer surface of my brain my 247 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:18,460 neocortex that's the part where all of 248 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:21,490 our human experience happens meningitis 249 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:24,010 is probably the most efficient way to 250 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:27,250 wipe out human brain and in human 251 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:30,760 existence and still leave some of the 252 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:32,410 deeper structures intact so that 253 00:11:37,170 --> 00:11:34,210 potentially somebody could survive it 254 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:37,180 although very very few people who are as 255 00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:38,620 sick as I was with bacterial meningitis 256 00:11:45,090 --> 00:11:42,880 end up surviving at all so I still 257 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:45,100 consider myself extremely fortunate and 258 00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:48,520 you remark in the book that this is for 259 00:11:53,550 --> 00:11:50,320 those reasons probably one of the most 260 00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:53,560 convincing cases of survival of 261 00:11:57,650 --> 00:11:55,060 consciousness because it's very 262 00:12:00,570 --> 00:11:57,660 difficult to argue from a medical 263 00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:00,580 neuroscience standpoint that there was 264 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:04,270 anything going on in that brain state 265 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:07,450 that you're in right well I think my 266 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:11,980 neurologic exams very clearly point out 267 00:12:17,370 --> 00:12:14,650 that I was getting much worse through 268 00:12:18,660 --> 00:12:17,380 the week to a point where I really 269 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:18,670 didn't need much in the way of sedation 270 00:12:25,020 --> 00:12:21,220 or anything my brain stem was very 271 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:25,030 damaged you can tell from my lack of 272 00:12:29,490 --> 00:12:27,070 brainstem reflexes I mean I was 273 00:12:30,770 --> 00:12:29,500 extremely sick from this and of course 274 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:30,780 when I started reviewing 275 00:12:35,150 --> 00:12:32,970 medical record much much later I was 276 00:12:37,730 --> 00:12:35,160 kind of shocked that I could be that 277 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:37,740 sick and then be coming back to the 278 00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:39,870 point where I was reviewing my own 279 00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:41,880 medical record and in fact I was present 280 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:44,880 at my own Grand Rounds which you know 281 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:47,540 were clinical pathologic correlation 282 00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:49,770 conference which you know most people 283 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:53,280 obviously cannot ever do because those 284 00:12:59,390 --> 00:12:54,930 conferences are about patients who were 285 00:13:02,390 --> 00:12:59,400 deathly ill and it's it just shocked me 286 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:02,400 the the meningitis was so effective that 287 00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:05,850 deep inside coma of you know when I 288 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:08,160 first became aware of anything deep 289 00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:11,370 inside coma I had absolutely no memory 290 00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:15,120 of my life no knowledge whatsoever of 291 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:17,100 Earth or humans or this universe 292 00:13:22,250 --> 00:13:19,890 certainly nothing about my identity or 293 00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:22,260 any of that I didn't even have any words 294 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:24,540 all my words were completely gone there 295 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:28,050 was no language at all and I spent a 296 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:31,500 very long period of time initially and 297 00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:34,170 of course long is easy to understand 298 00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:35,640 when you realize I had no prior 299 00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:38,190 existence so I mean just like for a 300 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:40,740 newborn you know an hour - can seem like 301 00:13:45,890 --> 00:13:41,970 infinity because it's their whole 302 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:45,900 lifetime and likewise just coming into 303 00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:48,090 existence in this murky kind of 304 00:13:56,950 --> 00:13:51,270 underground muddy foaming realm which is 305 00:14:00,470 --> 00:13:56,960 what I initially remembered it it was 306 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:00,480 it's it's a area that I call in my book 307 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:02,370 the earth worms eye view was a very 308 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:05,730 murky I don't think memory was working 309 00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:08,250 at all well and that's why I've seen so 310 00:14:14,030 --> 00:14:11,400 far I had no body awareness no sense of 311 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:14,040 self at all I was just aware of being 312 00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:16,410 the speck in this kind of mundane 313 00:14:23,420 --> 00:14:19,680 boiling soup with this mechanical 314 00:14:26,660 --> 00:14:23,430 pounding sound deep off in the distance 315 00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:26,670 and kind of a vague sensation of roots 316 00:14:31,870 --> 00:14:28,800 or vessels or something that we're 317 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:31,880 coursing through the muck around me 318 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:34,530 occasionally even a memory of some face 319 00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:36,750 that might boil up I mean you could be 320 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:39,540 ugly grotesque shapes certainly nothing 321 00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:42,770 identifiable they boil out of the muck 322 00:14:47,650 --> 00:14:44,959 and there might be some screech or war 323 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:47,660 or something and then they go back into 324 00:14:53,050 --> 00:14:50,570 the bubbling soup and that was that and 325 00:14:58,750 --> 00:14:53,060 I felt like I was in that earthworm I've 326 00:15:00,490 --> 00:14:58,760 you that murky realm for ages it's it's 327 00:15:02,199 --> 00:15:00,500 impossible to really put a number on it 328 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:02,209 because it was for a very very long time 329 00:15:08,350 --> 00:15:04,250 it was the only existence I'd ever known 330 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:08,360 and and it was in that setting that I 331 00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:12,680 had this what to me seems to be kind of 332 00:15:17,740 --> 00:15:15,920 a spontaneous emergence which is most 333 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:17,750 paradoxical and looking back on it 334 00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:20,330 because it was at a point where that 335 00:15:26,860 --> 00:15:22,880 earth were my view that Mach was at its 336 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:26,870 lowest ebb and you know my thinking when 337 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:28,850 I was writing all this up is that that 338 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:30,440 earth were my view was about the best 339 00:15:36,910 --> 00:15:33,110 consciousness that my brain soaking in 340 00:15:39,850 --> 00:15:36,920 pus could muster and that's why it was 341 00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:39,860 so stunning that what happened next was 342 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:43,480 an awareness of the spinning melody of 343 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:46,130 bright light and all these fine 344 00:15:49,930 --> 00:15:48,110 filaments coming off of it and it was 345 00:15:51,940 --> 00:15:49,940 spinning very slowly in front of me and 346 00:15:56,199 --> 00:15:51,950 coming closer but it had a beautiful 347 00:15:59,260 --> 00:15:56,209 melody that went with it and as it came 348 00:16:02,650 --> 00:15:59,270 closer it opened up like a rip in the in 349 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:02,660 the fabric of existence and was a portal 350 00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,649 into this lovely verdant Valley but I 351 00:16:12,090 --> 00:16:08,480 found that I was going into a beautiful 352 00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:12,100 realm that was a very rich tapestry very 353 00:16:20,199 --> 00:16:16,160 experiential in recalling all the the 354 00:16:22,060 --> 00:16:20,209 memories of it and my awareness of it in 355 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:22,070 the weeks after my coma when I was 356 00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:23,690 trying to write all this up as a neuro 357 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:27,260 scientific report the amazing thing was 358 00:16:34,990 --> 00:16:31,570 how a lot of the visual and auditory 359 00:16:37,060 --> 00:16:35,000 sensations had this complete overlap and 360 00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:37,070 I mean I think it sounds a lot like what 361 00:16:44,019 --> 00:16:41,600 is known as synesthesia where people in 362 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:44,029 kind of recognizing their senses in 363 00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:46,610 constructing the world realized that 364 00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:50,270 sometimes auditory may overrun into 365 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:53,990 visual and olfactory may be associated 366 00:16:58,239 --> 00:16:55,970 with certain visual or auditory 367 00:17:00,099 --> 00:16:58,249 and I saw a lot of that kind of thing 368 00:17:02,829 --> 00:17:00,109 when I was recalling all this and trying 369 00:17:07,259 --> 00:17:02,839 to write it down and it was a incredibly 370 00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:07,269 interactive realm and one that was very 371 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:11,360 beautiful and kind of vivid and stunning 372 00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:14,720 but in recalling the beautiful music and 373 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:19,839 a lot of the scenes that I saw it was 374 00:17:25,629 --> 00:17:22,730 very difficult to unravel just because 375 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:25,639 of this incredible overlap and it was 376 00:17:30,879 --> 00:17:28,490 all ultra real it was it makes the realm 377 00:17:32,860 --> 00:17:30,889 that we live in here and on earth seem 378 00:17:35,769 --> 00:17:32,870 very dreamlike in comparison it was a 379 00:17:38,830 --> 00:17:35,779 very sharp and crisp and and poignant 380 00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:38,840 and and meaningful and even though I had 381 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:43,929 no words in that realm the concepts 382 00:17:51,549 --> 00:17:47,809 conceptual flow was pure and complete I 383 00:17:53,889 --> 00:17:51,559 mean in fact words are seem to be a 384 00:17:57,060 --> 00:17:53,899 great bottleneck a hurdle to 385 00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:57,070 understanding compared to the way 386 00:18:04,629 --> 00:18:00,320 information flowed into me there and so 387 00:18:08,049 --> 00:18:04,639 I had that absolutely lovely scene that 388 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:08,059 I float up into that was very rich in 389 00:18:16,690 --> 00:18:13,490 its in its complexities and also very 390 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:16,700 interactive any question in my mind and 391 00:18:20,289 --> 00:18:18,230 again these were not worded questions 392 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:20,299 but I could wonder kind of why and who 393 00:18:26,409 --> 00:18:23,330 and what and the answers to those 394 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:26,419 questions hit me like these incredible 395 00:18:31,269 --> 00:18:28,370 waves of experience and they would come 396 00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:31,279 through me and I would know completely 397 00:18:37,419 --> 00:18:33,500 the the truth to everything around any 398 00:18:40,779 --> 00:18:37,429 of those queries and from there there 399 00:18:43,149 --> 00:18:40,789 was this very profound sense of divine 400 00:18:45,009 --> 00:18:43,159 and of the divine presence that I 401 00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:45,019 described in the book and also of the 402 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:47,750 importance of love and how powerful love 403 00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:50,090 is in that realm and then I went outside 404 00:18:58,659 --> 00:18:53,120 of the entire universe and I was out 405 00:19:01,029 --> 00:18:58,669 with with the orb of light and with this 406 00:19:03,549 --> 00:19:01,039 divinity and learned so much more and I 407 00:19:06,609 --> 00:19:03,559 go into that in detail in the book but 408 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:06,619 the important thing is that that very 409 00:19:12,370 --> 00:19:09,530 rich experience with profound knowledge 410 00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:12,380 coming into me would then suddenly 411 00:19:18,340 --> 00:19:16,580 without any apparent lead-in I would be 412 00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:18,350 back in that earthworm I've you and 413 00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:21,590 actually I learned that by recalling the 414 00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:24,440 notes of the melody that beautiful light 415 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:28,240 would come spin up in front of me and 416 00:19:33,310 --> 00:19:31,310 then as I kind of encouraged the melody 417 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:33,320 and remembered more of it the whole 418 00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:35,570 thing would open up again as a portal 419 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:37,880 into that beautiful very complex rich 420 00:19:42,340 --> 00:19:40,250 ultra real realm and then back outside 421 00:19:44,260 --> 00:19:42,350 of the universe where I was taught more 422 00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:44,270 lessons and that happened several times 423 00:19:48,610 --> 00:19:46,790 and it was a real mystery as I was 424 00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:48,620 trying to put it all together and write 425 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:51,500 it down when I came back especially that 426 00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:54,110 it was back and forth between this murky 427 00:20:03,460 --> 00:19:57,470 very simple and unresponsive earth were 428 00:20:06,610 --> 00:20:03,470 my view and the very rich and vivid and 429 00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:06,620 alive and responsive aspects of what I 430 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:08,480 call the gateway and then the core which 431 00:20:14,260 --> 00:20:11,510 was outside of the entire universe and I 432 00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:14,270 it took me a long time to understand you 433 00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:16,820 know why that all was and what that was 434 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:19,520 showing me really has taken me about 435 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:23,330 three and a half years to to come to my 436 00:20:28,450 --> 00:20:24,890 current level of understanding about 437 00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:28,460 what that entire journey meant and what 438 00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:30,500 it was what it was telling me well it's 439 00:20:35,980 --> 00:20:32,960 an absolutely amazing account and it's 440 00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:35,990 amazing on several levels one is the 441 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:38,480 detail you know it's unbelievable that 442 00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:40,970 you could have a recollection of that 443 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:43,430 level of detail and you can remember 444 00:20:47,530 --> 00:20:45,530 things happening in this sequence is 445 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:47,540 both remarkable and is very useful for 446 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:50,450 folks who want to understand whatever 447 00:20:54,670 --> 00:20:52,910 message you could bring back to us from 448 00:20:56,770 --> 00:20:54,680 that realm which i think is a tricky 449 00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,780 subject that we might want to talk more 450 00:21:00,760 --> 00:20:58,880 about later and I also like and you 451 00:21:04,990 --> 00:21:00,770 bring this out quite clearly in the book 452 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:05,000 is that despite any uncomfortableness 453 00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:07,970 that it might create in someone the 454 00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:11,870 message is one of divinity the message 455 00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:15,560 is one of love and a compassion that 456 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:19,280 goes far beyond what we can imagine in 457 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:21,410 this earthly realm but which we often 458 00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:23,770 talk about when we talk to people 459 00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:26,920 have had various kinds of spiritually 460 00:21:31,890 --> 00:21:29,110 transformative experiences so you do 461 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:31,900 kind of go there if you will and kind of 462 00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:33,850 jump right into it and say yep there's 463 00:21:40,050 --> 00:21:37,140 no question about it this was this 464 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:40,060 divine experience the phrase 465 00:21:44,820 --> 00:21:42,730 unconditional love of course people talk 466 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:44,830 about all the time who have had these 467 00:21:50,730 --> 00:21:48,310 kind of experiences and the words just 468 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:50,740 fail to do it justice but it explains so 469 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:53,770 much and it's the comfort that I found 470 00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:56,050 there and the love and the oneness and 471 00:22:02,640 --> 00:21:58,720 the connectedness that we all have and 472 00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:02,650 share is really profound but of course 473 00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:06,880 this is all confirmed turns out that my 474 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:10,870 older son had come home from college two 475 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:12,730 days after I got out of the hospital and 476 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:14,860 he was shocked to see me 477 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:16,930 you know conversing at all because the 478 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:18,550 last time he'd see me I had been in deep 479 00:22:24,750 --> 00:22:22,570 in coma and he was just amazed at this 480 00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:24,760 transition he said it was as if there 481 00:22:29,610 --> 00:22:27,520 was a light glowing within me which I 482 00:22:31,260 --> 00:22:29,620 certainly felt I mean I was getting up 483 00:22:33,630 --> 00:22:31,270 at 1:30 or 2:00 every morning and just 484 00:22:36,810 --> 00:22:33,640 writing I was so elated to be alive and 485 00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:36,820 elated to have been through all this but 486 00:22:42,290 --> 00:22:40,270 he also advised me he could tell I was 487 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:42,300 very interested in writing this up and 488 00:22:46,860 --> 00:22:44,920 at the time my intent was to try and 489 00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:46,870 explain it based on neuro scientific 490 00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:48,760 principles and because that 491 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:50,680 ultra-reality is just an absolutely 492 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:53,350 stunning thing and I had after I wrote 493 00:22:58,620 --> 00:22:56,290 down everything I could remember and he 494 00:23:01,080 --> 00:22:58,630 advised me to do that before I read 495 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:01,090 anything so in fact it took me about six 496 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:02,890 weeks after I got out of the hospital to 497 00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:05,710 write down what amounted to about 20,000 498 00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:08,500 words which was kind of my core story 499 00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:12,820 um and based on my son Evan was advised 500 00:23:17,070 --> 00:23:15,310 which is very sage advice not to read 501 00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:17,080 anything at all about physics cosmology 502 00:23:22,770 --> 00:23:20,110 or near-death experiences until I'd 503 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:22,780 ripped my entire story down then I 504 00:23:27,390 --> 00:23:25,030 started reading the near-death 505 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:27,400 literature and was kind of was shocked 506 00:23:32,790 --> 00:23:31,090 that the similarities across the board 507 00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:32,800 of what people experienced there and in 508 00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:36,460 fact when you research the afterlife 509 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:37,750 literature going all the way 510 00:23:42,690 --> 00:23:39,730 to the Egyptian Book of the Dead Tibetan 511 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:42,700 Book of the Dead and lots of other early 512 00:23:47,610 --> 00:23:44,650 writings about afterlife going all the 513 00:23:50,490 --> 00:23:47,620 way back to ancient Greece it's very 514 00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:50,500 clear that the similarities far outweigh 515 00:23:55,290 --> 00:23:52,390 the differences and are far more 516 00:24:01,320 --> 00:23:55,300 impressive that this realm is very real 517 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:01,330 and this realm is eternal and it's it's 518 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:03,970 it's very reassuring to see all this 519 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:06,850 confirmation you know in so many 520 00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:09,730 different places and for me as a 521 00:24:16,110 --> 00:24:12,880 neurosurg and it's pretty clear how the 522 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:16,120 the differences arise in in some of 523 00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:18,910 these stories and that has a lot to do 524 00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:21,340 with the brain as serving as in human 525 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:22,990 mind serving as kind of a filtering 526 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:27,010 function and so that our culture and our 527 00:24:34,020 --> 00:24:31,690 personal history can kind of flavor or 528 00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:34,030 color our recollections when we come 529 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:35,830 back from these places but having been 530 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:38,170 there I can tell you that it was far 531 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:40,810 more striking to me the similarities and 532 00:24:46,050 --> 00:24:42,010 the similarities going back from 533 00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:46,060 millennia in these writings of people 534 00:24:50,610 --> 00:24:48,280 who have visited these realms and it's 535 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:50,620 not simply those who have a near-death 536 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:53,890 experience there are numerous ways to 537 00:24:58,980 --> 00:24:55,480 have spiritually transformative 538 00:25:01,290 --> 00:24:58,990 experiences and to me some of the most 539 00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:01,300 instructive were in Raymond Moody's 540 00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:04,270 recent book glimpses of eternity where 541 00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:06,520 he talked about shared death experiences 542 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:08,920 where loved ones although back in the 543 00:25:13,770 --> 00:25:11,170 late 70s it was health care workers who 544 00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:13,780 happen to be there when a patient made 545 00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:17,980 the transition over would be kind of 546 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:19,900 sucked in along that spiritual journey 547 00:25:24,810 --> 00:25:22,810 even to the point of seeing someone's 548 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:24,820 life review a soul as a life review on 549 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:28,570 their way into the heavenly realm and 550 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:31,510 then the in the shared death experience 551 00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:33,970 you have a person who is perfectly 552 00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:36,520 healthy who gets whose soul gets sucked 553 00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:38,230 along for part of that journey and then 554 00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:40,180 comes back to tell about it 555 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:43,840 and I would say before my coma of course 556 00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:45,730 I would have been very tempted to say 557 00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:49,060 that's just some very kind of stressed 558 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:50,820 out psychological response 559 00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:53,130 now I know that real and that these 560 00:25:59,899 --> 00:25:56,190 things indicate kind of the profound 561 00:26:02,600 --> 00:25:59,909 nature of what's going on with reality 562 00:26:04,129 --> 00:26:02,610 and our existence and these are things 563 00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:04,139 that if we really want to understand 564 00:26:11,149 --> 00:26:07,620 truth and get to truth we need to have a 565 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:11,159 better understanding of what these kind 566 00:26:15,169 --> 00:26:13,289 of experiences are telling us let's talk 567 00:26:16,909 --> 00:26:15,179 a little bit about that because one of 568 00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:16,919 the really fascinating parts of the book 569 00:26:21,049 --> 00:26:19,200 is the professional transformation you 570 00:26:22,669 --> 00:26:21,059 go through as a result of this 571 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:22,679 experience I mean it's kind of like a 572 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:25,110 flat earth kind of thing where you 573 00:26:29,810 --> 00:26:27,450 reveal in the book that you weren't 574 00:26:33,110 --> 00:26:29,820 totally unaware of the near-death 575 00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:33,120 experience research you had it was out 576 00:26:37,159 --> 00:26:35,700 there you had heard of Raymond Moody but 577 00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:37,169 it was just something that you 578 00:26:42,379 --> 00:26:40,230 completely looked past because all your 579 00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:42,389 training had said this is impossible 580 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:44,940 this doesn't exist so it kind of creates 581 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:48,450 this blind spot in your medical 582 00:26:53,539 --> 00:26:51,330 knowledge I think that process is 583 00:26:56,389 --> 00:26:53,549 fascinating and you're very open about 584 00:26:59,360 --> 00:26:56,399 it I think it goes a long way towards 585 00:27:01,820 --> 00:26:59,370 helping us understand how we can be in 586 00:27:04,820 --> 00:27:01,830 the situation we're in in terms of the 587 00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:04,830 medical establishments and scientific 588 00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:07,950 establishments view of these kind of 589 00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:09,990 experiences do you want to talk to that 590 00:27:16,639 --> 00:27:13,710 a little bit yes I mean that's actually 591 00:27:20,060 --> 00:27:16,649 one of my favorite test subjects as you 592 00:27:21,619 --> 00:27:20,070 can imagine is kind of the transition 593 00:27:24,499 --> 00:27:21,629 that I went through because of this I 594 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:24,509 had grown up in North Carolina and 595 00:27:31,519 --> 00:27:27,860 winston-salem in a family my father was 596 00:27:36,350 --> 00:27:31,529 was a academic neurosurgeon and he 597 00:27:39,619 --> 00:27:36,360 always kind of led me into this 598 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:39,629 scientific way of thinking and I really 599 00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:41,250 spent my life growing up at with a 600 00:27:45,769 --> 00:27:43,590 scientific way of thinking he had also 601 00:27:50,169 --> 00:27:45,779 been a combat surgeon in the Pacific in 602 00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:50,179 World War two and I think it is strong 603 00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:52,320 spirituality that got him through that 604 00:27:58,460 --> 00:27:55,110 experience relatively intact because 605 00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,470 that was a very tough time and so he 606 00:28:02,029 --> 00:28:00,480 gave me both a spiritual background and 607 00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:02,039 we used to go to church a Methodist 608 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:03,740 Church when I was growing up 609 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:07,070 um but and as much as I wanted to 610 00:28:11,230 --> 00:28:09,050 believe in you know God in heaven and 611 00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:11,240 the power of prayer and all that the 612 00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:12,760 more I went through my academic 613 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:15,200 neurosurgical career and I trained at 614 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:17,000 Duke and then I spent 15 years on 615 00:28:22,570 --> 00:28:18,530 faculty at Harvard Medical School and 616 00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:22,580 neurosurgery the more it just seemed to 617 00:28:30,370 --> 00:28:26,900 be very basically impossible to explain 618 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:30,380 how of the spiritual realm and God in 619 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:34,190 heaven could exist and in fact I had my 620 00:28:43,660 --> 00:28:39,410 own personal kind of psychic challenge 621 00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:43,670 or trauma back in 2000 that had to do 622 00:28:49,180 --> 00:28:45,679 with the fact that I was adopted and and 623 00:28:51,820 --> 00:28:49,190 that ended up really crushing out of 624 00:28:53,740 --> 00:28:51,830 existence my last hope that there could 625 00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:53,750 be a loving God or that prayers would be 626 00:28:59,410 --> 00:28:56,240 answered and that was in 2000 that that 627 00:29:02,320 --> 00:28:59,420 happened and it was eight years later 628 00:29:04,450 --> 00:29:02,330 that I went into coma and I can tell you 629 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:04,460 that my journey in coma showed me very 630 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:07,250 clearly of the existence and the power 631 00:29:14,110 --> 00:29:10,910 of that divinity that exists and is very 632 00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:14,120 real and it also proved to me beyond any 633 00:29:19,810 --> 00:29:17,750 doubt of the Eternity of our souls and I 634 00:29:22,210 --> 00:29:19,820 know that physical death of the body and 635 00:29:24,580 --> 00:29:22,220 brain is not the end it's a transition 636 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:24,590 and in fact I think many will be quite 637 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:27,050 surprised to find that their conscious 638 00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:30,650 awareness actually expands greatly when 639 00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:33,830 they leave the confines of the physical 640 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:36,080 limitation of human brain and body and 641 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:38,210 that's something else that I explained 642 00:29:43,330 --> 00:29:41,570 pretty clearly in the book for me it it 643 00:29:45,870 --> 00:29:43,340 did require a tremendous amount of 644 00:29:48,970 --> 00:29:45,880 Education having been an academic 645 00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:48,980 neurosurgeon for over 20 years I thought 646 00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:51,470 I understood brain and help range and 647 00:29:56,530 --> 00:29:53,480 race consciousness and mind and soul 648 00:29:59,530 --> 00:29:56,540 spirit what-have-you but my thinking was 649 00:30:03,100 --> 00:29:59,540 clearly that when the brain and the body 650 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:03,110 die that's the end of consciousness soul 651 00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:05,450 spirit I now know that's absolutely not 652 00:30:09,220 --> 00:30:05,840 true 653 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:09,230 and to get to that point after my 654 00:30:12,580 --> 00:30:10,730 experience I really had to learn a 655 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:12,590 tremendous amount about consciousness 656 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:16,850 that I never had to know as a practicing 657 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:17,570 academic 658 00:30:22,180 --> 00:30:19,730 neurosurgeon because in neurosurgery we 659 00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:22,190 know a few things about consciousness we 660 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:23,990 know a few things that'll that seem to 661 00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:26,810 turn it off every day we use general 662 00:30:32,020 --> 00:30:29,420 anesthesia which is effective at turning 663 00:30:33,580 --> 00:30:32,030 off of consciousness and yet having used 664 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:33,590 it for 150 years 665 00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:36,050 we still have absolutely no clue how 666 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:38,990 general anesthesia works and I think 667 00:30:42,940 --> 00:30:41,330 that should give give the listener a 668 00:30:45,010 --> 00:30:42,950 little bit of an idea of how little we 669 00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:45,020 really understand about consciousness 670 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:50,660 and in fact what my my experience showed 671 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:53,510 me very clearly and I go into nine neuro 672 00:30:58,060 --> 00:30:56,090 scientific hypotheses in my book that I 673 00:31:00,640 --> 00:30:58,070 entertained and discussed with others in 674 00:31:04,050 --> 00:31:00,650 neuroscience neurosurgery trying to 675 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:04,060 explain how my ultra real experience 676 00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:07,370 might have happened in my brain giving 677 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:11,390 given the severity of my meningitis and 678 00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:15,410 none of them work and so in in many ways 679 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:17,390 my experience showed me that 680 00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:20,410 consciousness can exist very richly 681 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:22,880 totally outside of the brain and body 682 00:31:30,910 --> 00:31:26,210 and that it exists in that form all 683 00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:30,920 after our body dies now there's a lot of 684 00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:33,200 literature and transpersonal psychology 685 00:31:37,390 --> 00:31:35,270 that has to do with reincarnation and 686 00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:37,400 past life studies and also a tremendous 687 00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:41,200 literature on what I call phenomena of 688 00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:44,630 extended consciousness of some people in 689 00:31:51,490 --> 00:31:47,840 the past would say sigh or paranormal or 690 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:51,500 parapsychological experiences like 691 00:31:57,460 --> 00:31:54,530 remote viewing telepathy extrasensory 692 00:32:00,760 --> 00:31:57,470 perception psychokinesis out-of-body 693 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:00,770 experiences all manner of things like 694 00:32:06,580 --> 00:32:04,250 that that that that I know from my 695 00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:06,590 experience since coma are very real 696 00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:09,110 phenomena and there's a marvelous book 697 00:32:13,780 --> 00:32:11,870 irreducible mind that Edie Kelly and 698 00:32:18,090 --> 00:32:13,790 Bruce grace and in the group UVA put out 699 00:32:20,530 --> 00:32:18,100 for any scientific types who still doubt 700 00:32:23,740 --> 00:32:20,540 extended or what we call non-local 701 00:32:26,460 --> 00:32:23,750 consciousness and also of course the 702 00:32:29,710 --> 00:32:26,470 book by PIM van la ville on 703 00:32:34,779 --> 00:32:29,720 consciousness beyond life both of those 704 00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:34,789 books about consciousness and how it how 705 00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:37,190 it exists and in fact exists in a much 706 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:39,769 richer form when it's not encumbered 707 00:32:43,539 --> 00:32:42,110 with a physical brain and body but I do 708 00:32:45,970 --> 00:32:43,549 have to say one of the things I 709 00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:45,980 appreciated about the book is you really 710 00:32:51,210 --> 00:32:48,590 don't venture into those other areas too 711 00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:51,220 far which I think can get a little bit 712 00:32:55,869 --> 00:32:53,750 confusing and a little bit thin in terms 713 00:32:57,519 --> 00:32:55,879 of the real science of it when folks do 714 00:32:59,409 --> 00:32:57,529 that I mean you kind of allude to 715 00:33:00,519 --> 00:32:59,419 there's this other body of research out 716 00:33:02,499 --> 00:33:00,529 there that you might explore in 717 00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:02,509 consciousness but it you don't go too 718 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:05,600 far in the book and also what you do do 719 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:07,850 in the book which I really appreciate I 720 00:33:13,899 --> 00:33:10,730 thought was great is because the book is 721 00:33:17,169 --> 00:33:13,909 written in a very accessible way in a 722 00:33:18,669 --> 00:33:17,179 very page-turner kind of fashion you do 723 00:33:20,909 --> 00:33:18,679 have an appendix in the book that you're 724 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:20,919 just referring to that is in more of 725 00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:24,529 neuroscience ease that will certainly 726 00:33:30,129 --> 00:33:27,529 address pretty directly these kind of 727 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:30,139 quote-unquote scientific arguments that 728 00:33:34,269 --> 00:33:32,330 are often leveled against near-death 729 00:33:36,629 --> 00:33:34,279 experience you by the way I love this 730 00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:36,639 you mention that after looking at these 731 00:33:42,490 --> 00:33:39,919 scientific arguments you found them what 732 00:33:46,180 --> 00:33:42,500 did you say that you were shocked by 733 00:33:47,499 --> 00:33:46,190 their transparent flimsiness so you do 734 00:33:50,049 --> 00:33:47,509 have an appendix in the book that 735 00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:50,059 addresses things from a more medically 736 00:33:54,190 --> 00:33:52,399 oriented standpoint don't you well I 737 00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:54,200 think it's important I mean we're all in 738 00:33:59,769 --> 00:33:57,110 this together I think we're all trying 739 00:34:02,200 --> 00:33:59,779 to get to truth so it's not as if this 740 00:34:03,879 --> 00:34:02,210 is some great babble and somebody's 741 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:03,889 gonna come out winning I think all of us 742 00:34:08,919 --> 00:34:06,529 really would like to get closer to the 743 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:08,929 truth about our existence and what my 744 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:12,770 experience forced me to do was to really 745 00:34:17,710 --> 00:34:14,690 come to grips with what we know about 746 00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:17,720 consciousness and what we don't because 747 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:20,089 it's all about consciousness and of 748 00:34:26,649 --> 00:34:24,290 course just to clarify for people some 749 00:34:28,899 --> 00:34:26,659 in fact some people in my audiences who 750 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:28,909 thought that only humans are conscious 751 00:34:32,889 --> 00:34:30,770 because we're the ones who talk and have 752 00:34:35,399 --> 00:34:32,899 language well it turns out the 753 00:34:39,579 --> 00:34:35,409 consciousness probably goes way down the 754 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:39,589 evolutionary ladder and in fact I will 755 00:34:45,590 --> 00:34:43,050 assure you that many animals 756 00:34:46,700 --> 00:34:45,600 have a very rich consciousness of many 757 00:34:50,330 --> 00:34:46,710 of them probably have a richer 758 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:50,340 consciousness than we do because the the 759 00:34:54,590 --> 00:34:52,650 linguistic brain that little rational 760 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:54,600 part in our brain and of course that's a 761 00:34:58,070 --> 00:34:56,370 part that I you know put all that 762 00:35:01,940 --> 00:34:58,080 tuition money into in all those years of 763 00:35:05,180 --> 00:35:01,950 training to teach my teach myself neuro 764 00:35:08,450 --> 00:35:05,190 surgery it turns out that that little 765 00:35:11,090 --> 00:35:08,460 voice the rational voice in our head is 766 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:11,100 not really our consciousness and then in 767 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:14,610 fact I've gotten into a pattern of daily 768 00:35:19,850 --> 00:35:17,250 meditation centering prayer things like 769 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:19,860 that ever since my coma because the real 770 00:35:23,930 --> 00:35:22,710 answers lie deep within all of us we 771 00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:23,940 have these answers in our own 772 00:35:29,420 --> 00:35:27,390 consciousness but it involves my 773 00:35:31,820 --> 00:35:29,430 meditations involve first and foremost 774 00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:31,830 turning off that little voice you know 775 00:35:36,830 --> 00:35:34,350 little boy some reason in my head and in 776 00:35:39,530 --> 00:35:36,840 fact neuroscience showed 30 40 years ago 777 00:35:41,770 --> 00:35:39,540 with Benjamin Labatt's experiments as a 778 00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:41,780 starting point but others more recently 779 00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:45,150 that that little voice of reason is not 780 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:46,740 the decision-maker that we'd like to 781 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:48,930 think but it's actually a passive 782 00:35:54,340 --> 00:35:51,630 observer it's tied with our ego and with 783 00:35:58,730 --> 00:35:54,350 self and in fact what I found is that 784 00:36:01,250 --> 00:35:58,740 liberating you know who I am and my 785 00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:01,260 awareness liberating that from myself 786 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:04,800 and my ego is a very important part of 787 00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:06,210 trying to get to some of these deeper 788 00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:08,340 truths which I think are accessible 789 00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:10,920 through deep meditation or centering 790 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:13,230 prayer although certainly I know 791 00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:15,570 patients and families who've gotten the 792 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:20,190 same kind of bridge to the divine to 793 00:36:25,250 --> 00:36:22,410 knowing of the divine to what I call the 794 00:36:27,140 --> 00:36:25,260 gift of desperation which also can 795 00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:27,150 certainly happen in people's lives where 796 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:28,830 you just feel like you can't take 797 00:36:33,020 --> 00:36:30,570 another step because everything has gone 798 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:33,030 wrong and it's just kind of the end and 799 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:35,970 that's when you feel that divine love 800 00:36:43,070 --> 00:36:39,690 inside of you and it's very real because 801 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:43,080 it is real it's it's and again that's 802 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:46,050 something I go into in my book about the 803 00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:48,570 power of love and that unconditional 804 00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:51,030 love and how we all all are loved and 805 00:36:55,790 --> 00:36:53,760 it's a crucial thing to understand as we 806 00:36:58,100 --> 00:36:55,800 move forward 807 00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:58,110 and I think it will help people feel 808 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:00,960 this connectedness that we all share to 809 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:03,450 read my book and kind of get how this 810 00:37:08,410 --> 00:37:05,970 has changed the way I look at all of our 811 00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:08,420 existence and look at consciousness I 812 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:11,400 did ago how I had to learn a tremendous 813 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:14,010 amount about consciousness and I came 814 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:15,810 upon the hard problem of consciousness 815 00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:19,170 which I also would urge any interested 816 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:20,880 parties to look into if you haven't done 817 00:37:25,220 --> 00:37:23,370 that yet it's the hard problem is 818 00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:25,230 actually a very simple thing to state 819 00:37:32,210 --> 00:37:29,640 it's simply how does our kind of 820 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:32,220 conscious awareness that we each know 821 00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:35,370 and experience every waking second how 822 00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:37,590 does that emerge from the physics 823 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:40,590 chemistry biology and anatomy physiology 824 00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:43,650 of the human brain and what I can assure 825 00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:47,730 you is that there is not a soul on earth 826 00:37:55,070 --> 00:37:52,350 who has a clue but the first sentence in 827 00:37:56,570 --> 00:37:55,080 the chapter describing that emergence of 828 00:37:59,090 --> 00:37:56,580 consciousness from the physical brain 829 00:38:00,920 --> 00:37:59,100 there's no one on earth who knows how to 830 00:38:04,810 --> 00:38:00,930 start writing that chapter because it's 831 00:38:07,820 --> 00:38:04,820 a very very deep mystery this is 832 00:38:09,740 --> 00:38:07,830 something that I've really had to come 833 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:09,750 to know full force because it helps me 834 00:38:15,260 --> 00:38:12,810 to understand of my whole experience and 835 00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:15,270 of course the other side of it that I 836 00:38:19,850 --> 00:38:17,550 discussed briefly in the book has to do 837 00:38:21,770 --> 00:38:19,860 with the Enigma of the interpretation of 838 00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:21,780 quantum mechanics because quantum 839 00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:23,790 mechanics has been telling us for almost 840 00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:28,940 a hundred years now that consciousness 841 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:32,400 paints reality that there is something 842 00:38:40,850 --> 00:38:36,770 very profound about consciousness that 843 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:40,860 enables a reality to emerge and our what 844 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:42,090 we would consider our common-sense 845 00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:44,910 day-to-day knowledge that says that 846 00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:46,440 there's a reality there and we're simply 847 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:49,470 passive observers is not correct and 848 00:38:53,780 --> 00:38:51,650 that's why many very brilliant 849 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:53,790 scientists who came up with quantum 850 00:38:59,450 --> 00:38:55,770 mechanics in the first place were driven 851 00:39:01,820 --> 00:38:59,460 to mysticism in trying to explain what 852 00:39:03,710 --> 00:39:01,830 the experiments revealed and the 853 00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:03,720 experiments have only gotten even more 854 00:39:09,499 --> 00:39:06,510 mysterious in recent years not less so 855 00:39:11,299 --> 00:39:09,509 but I think the physics community has 856 00:39:13,729 --> 00:39:11,309 I would say they've not necessarily 857 00:39:15,259 --> 00:39:13,739 stepped up to the plate to try and 858 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:15,269 answer that although there are notable 859 00:39:20,299 --> 00:39:17,249 exceptions like Roger Penrose has 860 00:39:23,059 --> 00:39:20,309 written several excellent books trying 861 00:39:27,049 --> 00:39:23,069 to establish a physics that can be used 862 00:39:29,359 --> 00:39:27,059 to help explain consciousness so dr. 863 00:39:30,620 --> 00:39:29,369 Alexander the name Raymond moody of 864 00:39:32,749 --> 00:39:30,630 course the pioneering 865 00:39:34,669 --> 00:39:32,759 NDE researcher his name's come up a 866 00:39:36,379 --> 00:39:34,679 couple times in this interview I'd like 867 00:39:38,209 --> 00:39:36,389 to explore one aspect of that that I 868 00:39:40,969 --> 00:39:38,219 don't know if you're aware of but in 869 00:39:44,059 --> 00:39:40,979 your book you're very open about your 870 00:39:47,359 --> 00:39:44,069 experience of adoption being adopted as 871 00:39:50,259 --> 00:39:47,369 a baby and how that plays into your 872 00:39:53,029 --> 00:39:50,269 near-death experience in a very amazing 873 00:39:55,729 --> 00:39:53,039 mystical almost kind of way I don't know 874 00:39:59,749 --> 00:39:55,739 if you're aware but dr. moody is a 875 00:40:03,469 --> 00:39:59,759 parent of two adopted children and he 876 00:40:06,349 --> 00:40:03,479 tells an amazing story about his son at 877 00:40:10,129 --> 00:40:06,359 a very young age coming to him with this 878 00:40:13,069 --> 00:40:10,139 between lives memory and his son Raymond 879 00:40:16,479 --> 00:40:13,079 Moody's son says I remember looking down 880 00:40:20,329 --> 00:40:16,489 and seeing you and Mom on the beach 881 00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:20,339 talking about adoption and I was told 882 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:22,529 you're gonna go join that family and 883 00:40:24,439 --> 00:40:23,729 you're going to become part of that 884 00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:24,449 family 885 00:40:29,149 --> 00:40:27,689 and I guess there's so many different 886 00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:29,159 aspects of that that we could go into 887 00:40:34,339 --> 00:40:31,049 but one of the things I guess I wanted 888 00:40:38,629 --> 00:40:34,349 to explore is does it not seem that a 889 00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:38,639 lot of times these NDEs serve up to us 890 00:40:44,479 --> 00:40:41,880 just what we're looking for or just what 891 00:40:46,849 --> 00:40:44,489 we're needing to advance sometimes on a 892 00:40:50,179 --> 00:40:46,859 level that we can't even understand but 893 00:40:53,209 --> 00:40:50,189 they somehow fit into our into our life 894 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:53,219 plan and resolve for us these life 895 00:41:00,019 --> 00:40:56,249 issues yeah I think that's that's a 896 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:00,029 beautiful point and yes dr. moody is a 897 00:41:05,419 --> 00:41:02,249 good friend of mine I just I love him 898 00:41:08,419 --> 00:41:05,429 dearly he's such a wonderful soul as 899 00:41:12,769 --> 00:41:08,429 many people who know him will attest and 900 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:12,779 I have heard his telling of some of the 901 00:41:19,059 --> 00:41:15,209 revelations that he is he has gotten 902 00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:19,069 from his adoptive children and it's just 903 00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:21,359 absolutely beautiful but you're exactly 904 00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:22,710 right it's 905 00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:25,710 and of course I'm sure you you kind of 906 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:29,520 saw how in my story it was it was woven 907 00:41:36,290 --> 00:41:33,330 together to demonstrate very clearly how 908 00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:36,300 much of my life and how so much of my 909 00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:38,220 life especially parts that just didn't 910 00:41:45,230 --> 00:41:42,000 make sense before all came together and 911 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:45,240 made sense by putting the pieces 912 00:41:49,730 --> 00:41:47,130 together through my MDE 913 00:41:53,950 --> 00:41:49,740 and in fact it was kind of a two-way 914 00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:53,960 street because my my NDE 915 00:42:02,020 --> 00:41:58,530 in many ways in my mind was validated 916 00:42:04,130 --> 00:42:02,030 very profoundly as a deep rich 917 00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:04,140 transcendental spiritual experience 918 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:07,680 because of the way it presented to me 919 00:42:14,690 --> 00:42:11,370 and and basically through things that 920 00:42:16,610 --> 00:42:14,700 were unknown to me because of the fact 921 00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:16,620 that I had been adopted put up for 922 00:42:23,540 --> 00:42:19,470 adoption and that kind of validation is 923 00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:23,550 very powerful and I think all that in 924 00:42:28,210 --> 00:42:24,960 essence I mean it would certainly seem 925 00:42:32,330 --> 00:42:28,220 that it could have easily been a 926 00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:32,340 purposeful thing because the revelation 927 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:35,520 to me was so profound when I when I put 928 00:42:44,450 --> 00:42:37,610 it all together several months after 929 00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,460 after my coma that it really basically 930 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:46,800 made everything started make sense once 931 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:48,690 I put it together but you're right it's 932 00:42:54,140 --> 00:42:51,210 amazing how these NDEs often will bring 933 00:42:56,450 --> 00:42:54,150 the pieces together that they that help 934 00:42:59,420 --> 00:42:56,460 our life on earth it may have seemed 935 00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:59,430 somewhat fragmented before to may bring 936 00:43:04,220 --> 00:43:01,440 it all to a point where it makes much 937 00:43:05,930 --> 00:43:04,230 more sense and one of the beautiful 938 00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:05,940 gifts that we get out of these 939 00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:08,390 experiences but there's also a challenge 940 00:43:13,490 --> 00:43:10,800 therein and I think it has to do with 941 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:13,500 this word again personal because there 942 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:15,930 is a tendency sometimes for folks to 943 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:17,810 come back from these experiences and 944 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:21,210 generalize their personal message and 945 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:23,490 kind of broadcast it out there that hey 946 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:25,650 you know I just talked to God and here's 947 00:43:31,850 --> 00:43:28,170 what he had to say or here's what she 948 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:31,860 had to say and as tempting as it is to 949 00:43:35,210 --> 00:43:33,330 go along with that and I think anyone 950 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:35,220 who's been into near-death experience 951 00:43:38,810 --> 00:43:36,330 research as 952 00:43:42,530 --> 00:43:38,820 been uplifted by some of these accounts 953 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:42,540 there's a certain inability we have to 954 00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:45,330 really access that information we can't 955 00:43:50,810 --> 00:43:47,510 really take it on face value can we 956 00:43:53,330 --> 00:43:50,820 right that that's absolutely true and I 957 00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:53,340 I think that's why I try to make the 958 00:44:00,590 --> 00:43:58,740 point in my book that is profound and 959 00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:00,600 life-changing as a near-death experience 960 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:05,940 is I firmly believe that we all have 961 00:44:13,390 --> 00:44:09,330 access to this kind of knowing that we 962 00:44:15,950 --> 00:44:13,400 don't have to almost die to get it and 963 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:15,960 you know as I point out that has a lot 964 00:44:20,780 --> 00:44:18,450 to do with meditation or centering 965 00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:20,790 prayer going pretty deep into our own 966 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:22,880 consciousness and getting away from that 967 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:27,690 linguistic brain the ego and the self 968 00:44:33,620 --> 00:44:29,970 which you know erect all these kind of 969 00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:33,630 false hurdles around us up at the 970 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:35,700 surface level but to get beneath all 971 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:39,930 that we can get to some much higher 972 00:44:45,590 --> 00:44:43,530 truths that are applicable more 973 00:44:48,110 --> 00:44:45,600 generally because you're right I mean I 974 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:48,120 think the lessons that I got out of my 975 00:44:53,630 --> 00:44:50,610 NDE are very good for me and I also 976 00:45:00,500 --> 00:44:53,640 think the one of the main values of my 977 00:45:03,740 --> 00:45:00,510 NDE is that it very strongly supports 978 00:45:08,030 --> 00:45:03,750 that that whole spiritual realm is very 979 00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:08,040 real and part of that is is it offers a 980 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:11,760 much more facile explanation of the 981 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:14,090 relationship between mind and brain in 982 00:45:20,570 --> 00:45:18,570 consciousness and reality and so I think 983 00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:20,580 that it has value in that sense but a 984 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:22,320 lot of my personal lessons and a lot of 985 00:45:27,740 --> 00:45:25,530 the profound parts of my story that had 986 00:45:30,650 --> 00:45:27,750 to do with my adoption and putting my 987 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:30,660 life back into a piece that made much 988 00:45:36,350 --> 00:45:34,050 more sense obviously your personal you 989 00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:36,360 know and and for me but I think the 990 00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:39,150 overall story can help other people to 991 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:44,160 be open and look for similar things in 992 00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,770 their own life and also know that you 993 00:45:49,650 --> 00:45:48,720 can find those deep in meditation or in 994 00:45:52,740 --> 00:45:49,660 centering prayer 995 00:45:56,039 --> 00:45:52,750 or in other kinds of spiritually 996 00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:56,049 transformative transcendent states well 997 00:46:00,930 --> 00:45:58,210 the book title again is proof of heaven 998 00:46:03,630 --> 00:46:00,940 a neuro surgeons experience and journey 999 00:46:06,329 --> 00:46:03,640 into the afterlife it's sure to be a big 1000 00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:06,339 success it's going to be out right 1001 00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:08,710 around the same time that this interview 1002 00:46:14,940 --> 00:46:12,430 is published in October of 2012 tell us 1003 00:46:19,140 --> 00:46:14,950 about the other things that you're doing 1004 00:46:21,150 --> 00:46:19,150 related to this book attorney a.org tell 1005 00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:21,160 us a little bit about that and or any 1006 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:22,990 other things that are going along with 1007 00:46:26,999 --> 00:46:25,210 the publication of the book right well I 1008 00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:27,009 would urge anyone interested in the book 1009 00:46:34,730 --> 00:46:29,440 to visit my personal webpage which is 1010 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:34,740 life beyond death net I'm trying to use 1011 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:38,890 the enthusiasm around this book to to 1012 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:42,450 help educate people about eternia org 1013 00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:45,970 and this is a site that I co-founded 1014 00:46:51,210 --> 00:46:47,500 with my very good friend and colleague 1015 00:46:54,029 --> 00:46:51,220 John Audet who is also a founder of ions 1016 00:46:56,339 --> 00:46:54,039 the iand s the near-death studies group 1017 00:47:00,329 --> 00:46:56,349 founded over 30 years ago 1018 00:47:04,620 --> 00:47:00,339 and John and others Ray Moody Bill 1019 00:47:08,670 --> 00:47:04,630 Guggenheim Edgar Mitchell of ions io NS 1020 00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:08,680 and Bob Starr adds they're there 1021 00:47:13,819 --> 00:47:10,420 numerous people who were helping with 1022 00:47:17,549 --> 00:47:13,829 the eternia effort we wanted to serve as 1023 00:47:20,839 --> 00:47:17,559 an educational platform to help people 1024 00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:20,849 learn about all manner of spiritually 1025 00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:23,440 transformative experiences so not just 1026 00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:26,710 near-death experiences but a tremendous 1027 00:47:32,819 --> 00:47:31,119 number of other spiritual experiences 1028 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:32,829 that are out there that help us to know 1029 00:47:38,609 --> 00:47:35,890 that that God in heaven and angels and 1030 00:47:40,049 --> 00:47:38,619 the whole spiritual realm can be very 1031 00:47:43,740 --> 00:47:40,059 real this can be after death 1032 00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:43,750 communications terminal lucidity is one 1033 00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:44,740 of the things you talk about in the book 1034 00:47:51,539 --> 00:47:48,640 that I refer to in my book because by 1035 00:47:53,940 --> 00:47:51,549 and people can go there we're creating a 1036 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:53,950 database where people can tell their own 1037 00:47:58,170 --> 00:47:56,650 stories and we'll have a we're trying to 1038 00:47:59,700 --> 00:47:58,180 pay a lot of attention to how the data 1039 00:48:00,859 --> 00:47:59,710 is entered so that it'll be very useful 1040 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:00,869 data 1041 00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:03,930 that we bet on the way and we will open 1042 00:48:07,940 --> 00:48:05,910 this to researchers scientific 1043 00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:07,950 researchers consciousness researchers 1044 00:48:15,950 --> 00:48:12,900 those in clergy and also as I said have 1045 00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:15,960 it be an educational facility for people 1046 00:48:20,299 --> 00:48:17,700 who were curious about life after death 1047 00:48:22,489 --> 00:48:20,309 curious about the spiritual realm and 1048 00:48:25,370 --> 00:48:22,499 this is something I'm very grateful to 1049 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:25,380 Edgar Mitchell the Apollo 14 astronaut 1050 00:48:30,799 --> 00:48:27,450 who's been a wonderful help in all this 1051 00:48:33,799 --> 00:48:30,809 he had a this beautiful epiphany on his 1052 00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:33,809 way back from the moon back in the early 1053 00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:36,960 1970s where he was aware of this 1054 00:48:40,819 --> 00:48:38,609 consciousness throughout the universe 1055 00:48:45,140 --> 00:48:40,829 and of course he has addressed that 1056 00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:45,150 through ions io NS and through a quant 1057 00:48:51,249 --> 00:48:47,730 rack and basically his view being that 1058 00:48:53,599 --> 00:48:51,259 of looking at the quantum hologram which 1059 00:48:56,029 --> 00:48:53,609 you know those of you who are interested 1060 00:48:59,210 --> 00:48:56,039 can go check into it's it's part of 1061 00:49:00,739 --> 00:48:59,220 David balm and some of the other models 1062 00:49:03,859 --> 00:49:00,749 that have to do with interpretation of 1063 00:49:06,890 --> 00:49:03,869 quantum mechanics in my view that kind 1064 00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:06,900 of thing really supports information as 1065 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:09,420 the core of all existence and it's a 1066 00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:11,690 very short step from the physics 1067 00:49:16,609 --> 00:49:13,980 statement that information is at the 1068 00:49:20,420 --> 00:49:16,619 base of all existence to saying that an 1069 00:49:23,749 --> 00:49:20,430 intelligent omniscient unconditionally 1070 00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:23,759 loving creator is that information at 1071 00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:27,839 the core of it all but we are trying 1072 00:49:34,190 --> 00:49:30,960 with Eternia to bring science and 1073 00:49:35,779 --> 00:49:34,200 spirituality much closer and in fact I 1074 00:49:40,279 --> 00:49:35,789 think that humanity will see its 1075 00:49:44,359 --> 00:49:40,289 greatest progress if we simply open the 1076 00:49:50,539 --> 00:49:44,369 boundaries of science to fully encompass 1077 00:49:52,489 --> 00:49:50,549 all the possibility that belief and in 1078 00:49:56,420 --> 00:49:52,499 faith and knowing of the spiritual 1079 00:49:59,870 --> 00:49:56,430 nature of the universe can can exist 1080 00:50:02,779 --> 00:49:59,880 very comfortably with the latest 1081 00:50:04,279 --> 00:50:02,789 discoveries in science and in fact as I 1082 00:50:08,989 --> 00:50:04,289 said I've really had to go a long way 1083 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:08,999 into quantum mechanics in fact a second 1084 00:50:14,540 --> 00:50:12,690 book which I'm working on will take a 1085 00:50:16,070 --> 00:50:14,550 lot of the stuff I had to strip 1086 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:16,080 of the first book because the first book 1087 00:50:20,420 --> 00:50:18,810 is really for the general reader and I 1088 00:50:22,220 --> 00:50:20,430 can tell you that to try and fully 1089 00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:22,230 explain my experience I had to get right 1090 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:24,230 down into the very fundamentals of 1091 00:50:33,890 --> 00:50:30,170 causality um freewill predetermination 1092 00:50:35,630 --> 00:50:33,900 energy mass time-space I mean really had 1093 00:50:38,690 --> 00:50:35,640 to get down into the nitty-gritty of 1094 00:50:40,970 --> 00:50:38,700 reality to try and fully understand it 1095 00:50:44,420 --> 00:50:40,980 and of course most of that was far too 1096 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:44,430 deep for a book written from the general 1097 00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:46,650 public and so a lot of that was stripped 1098 00:50:52,070 --> 00:50:48,000 out but that is something that I'm 1099 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:52,080 working on and hope to finish you know 1100 00:50:56,690 --> 00:50:54,210 sometime in the next few years it's a 1101 00:50:58,550 --> 00:50:56,700 major project as you can imagine but I 1102 00:51:00,920 --> 00:50:58,560 think to really put all this together 1103 00:51:05,780 --> 00:51:00,930 into a package that makes sense in the 1104 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:05,790 year 2012 for very educated people you 1105 00:51:09,170 --> 00:51:07,290 know we really have to look at all 1106 00:51:10,850 --> 00:51:09,180 aspects of this and it goes very deep 1107 00:51:13,790 --> 00:51:10,860 one thing I can tell you from my 1108 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:13,800 experience is I realized that the chasm 1109 00:51:18,020 --> 00:51:16,050 between our scientific knowledge and 1110 00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:18,030 even of the potential for human 1111 00:51:25,630 --> 00:51:20,670 understanding the chasm between that 1112 00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:25,640 point and we're you know the realm of 1113 00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:29,880 this deity and the creative source of 1114 00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:32,880 this universe is so much grander than I 1115 00:51:37,490 --> 00:51:34,800 ever would have thought before and I 1116 00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:37,500 it's now very clear to me how the human 1117 00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:39,990 mind is just not in the right ballpark 1118 00:51:46,100 --> 00:51:43,440 to ever weigh in pro or con on the 1119 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:46,110 existence of that creator we're a little 1120 00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:51,690 closer than lemurs chimpanzees but not a 1121 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:54,240 whole lot and so all those physicists 1122 00:51:57,950 --> 00:51:56,370 out there who want to write the theory 1123 00:51:59,980 --> 00:51:57,960 of everything so they can get first 1124 00:52:03,560 --> 00:51:59,990 prize in the publish or perish 1125 00:52:07,130 --> 00:52:03,570 challenge um you know we're never gonna 1126 00:52:09,530 --> 00:52:07,140 know it all and there are some very you 1127 00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:09,540 know strong philosophical reasons why I 1128 00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,240 can say that but in the current book and 1129 00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:14,160 we'll get into it a whole lot in my next 1130 00:52:20,330 --> 00:52:17,040 book but don't worry the journey is just 1131 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:20,340 fine it turns out that when we when we 1132 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:22,410 are free of the limitations of human 1133 00:52:28,130 --> 00:52:25,770 brain and mind we actually can get into 1134 00:52:30,020 --> 00:52:28,140 a tremendous amount more 1135 00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:30,030 and that's one of the challenges is when 1136 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:32,310 I came back you know trying to squeeze 1137 00:52:38,990 --> 00:52:36,930 into this little brain and body is a 1138 00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:39,000 very difficult thing which of course I 1139 00:52:42,580 --> 00:52:41,280 found was problem that many people who 1140 00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:42,590 have NDEs 1141 00:52:47,390 --> 00:52:45,510 rapport that same issue and I can tell 1142 00:52:51,290 --> 00:52:47,400 you that awareness and understanding is 1143 00:52:53,630 --> 00:52:51,300 much richer out there and it's we 1144 00:52:57,170 --> 00:52:53,640 unfortunately just can't bring it all 1145 00:52:58,940 --> 00:52:57,180 back because we're only human and we can 1146 00:53:00,530 --> 00:52:58,950 get a tremendous amount of insight and 1147 00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:00,540 we can try and pass that on to others 1148 00:53:05,060 --> 00:53:03,510 which I try and do in this book but we 1149 00:53:09,020 --> 00:53:05,070 don't necessarily bring back all that 1150 00:53:09,710 --> 00:53:09,030 we're able to witness when we're free in 1151 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:09,720 that realm 1152 00:53:15,230 --> 00:53:12,450 well dr. Alexander it's a wonderful book 1153 00:53:16,730 --> 00:53:15,240 and it's a very great body of work that 1154 00:53:18,530 --> 00:53:16,740 you're trying to bring forward so we 1155 00:53:20,450 --> 00:53:18,540 wish you the best of luck with that we 1156 00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:20,460 look forward to talking to you in the 1157 00:53:24,260 --> 00:53:22,140 future as you move forward with that and 1158 00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:24,270 thanks again so much for joining me 1159 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:27,180 today on skeptic oh okay Alex thank you 1160 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:29,010 very much it was great talking with you 1161 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:31,530 thanks again to dr. Evan Alexander for 1162 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:33,330 joining me today on skeptic oh I have a 1163 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:34,770 couple of questions I'd like to tee up 1164 00:53:37,100 --> 00:53:36,570 from this interview but before I get 1165 00:53:39,230 --> 00:53:37,110 there 1166 00:53:40,910 --> 00:53:39,240 I wanted to make mention of an also of 1167 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:40,920 interest kind of thing like I did last 1168 00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:42,450 episode there's a really interesting 1169 00:53:48,050 --> 00:53:46,020 website called anomalous experience 1170 00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:48,060 created by Dan Neyman and Dan is 1171 00:53:52,700 --> 00:53:50,570 collecting all sorts of anomalous 1172 00:53:54,830 --> 00:53:52,710 experiences on his website and 1173 00:53:56,570 --> 00:53:54,840 publishing them it's really an 1174 00:53:58,430 --> 00:53:56,580 interesting project check it out 1175 00:54:00,590 --> 00:53:58,440 and also check out a couple of his 1176 00:54:03,740 --> 00:54:00,600 articles he recently afforded me an 1177 00:54:06,170 --> 00:54:03,750 article on a new look at alien 1178 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:06,180 abductions from a paranormal worldview 1179 00:54:11,180 --> 00:54:08,730 kind of new science perspective very 1180 00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:11,190 very interesting stuff so don't be 1181 00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:13,110 turned off by that subject area check 1182 00:54:16,730 --> 00:54:14,700 out the article I think you'll find it 1183 00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:16,740 very interesting and now for a couple 1184 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:18,720 questions from this interview with Evan 1185 00:54:23,090 --> 00:54:20,850 Alexander I guess question number one 1186 00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:23,100 would be how do you think we should view 1187 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:26,160 dr. Alexander's experience within the 1188 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:28,290 broader body of near-death experience 1189 00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:30,570 accounts as you hear he was really 1190 00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:32,910 rather rigorous about not looking at any 1191 00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:35,730 of the NDE literature before he had 1192 00:54:41,150 --> 00:54:38,160 fully chronicled his account I think 1193 00:54:43,490 --> 00:54:41,160 that gives us a unique vantage point to 1194 00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,500 get his experience and I'd like to hear 1195 00:54:47,630 --> 00:54:45,839 your thoughts on that and the second 1196 00:54:51,140 --> 00:54:47,640 question has to do with I guess the 1197 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:51,150 culture war issues surrounding this 1198 00:54:56,859 --> 00:54:54,210 because after all we can't just look at 1199 00:55:00,109 --> 00:54:56,869 dr. Alexander's book as just another 1200 00:55:02,450 --> 00:55:00,119 medical story it fits into this broader 1201 00:55:05,420 --> 00:55:02,460 context of this science versus religion 1202 00:55:07,339 --> 00:55:05,430 debate even though it's not a religious 1203 00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,349 book but it's gonna fall into that 1204 00:55:11,180 --> 00:55:09,119 category and that's why it's generated 1205 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:11,190 such a heated response from atheists who 1206 00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:13,170 see a threat to this kind of 1207 00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:15,960 spirituality being spun out there by a 1208 00:55:22,009 --> 00:55:19,250 physician so what do you think about dr. 1209 00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:22,019 Alexander's approach in terms of going 1210 00:55:27,859 --> 00:55:24,480 there and saying this is divine this is 1211 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:27,869 God this is my experience and it was 1212 00:55:33,769 --> 00:55:30,930 divine is that too much would he have 1213 00:55:35,930 --> 00:55:33,779 been better off playing it safe being 1214 00:55:38,690 --> 00:55:35,940 more careful couching this in more 1215 00:55:42,230 --> 00:55:38,700 scientific medical terms like we so 1216 00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:42,240 often hear from other NDE researchers 1217 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:44,460 I'd be very interested to hear your 1218 00:55:48,529 --> 00:55:46,890 thoughts on that of course the place to 1219 00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:48,539 connect and share those thoughts is 1220 00:55:53,029 --> 00:55:50,880 either on the skeptical forum or on the 1221 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:53,039 comment section of The Skeptical website 1222 00:56:00,559 --> 00:55:56,130 you can find links to both at skeptic Oh 1223 00:56:02,150 --> 00:56:00,569 calm that's s ke PTI ke o calm and of 1224 00:56:05,029 --> 00:56:02,160 course you'll find links to all our 1225 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:05,039 almost 200 previous episodes as well 1226 00:56:09,380 --> 00:56:07,170 that's gonna do it for today I have a 1227 00:56:11,359 --> 00:56:09,390 number of interesting shows coming up 1228 00:56:14,089 --> 00:56:11,369 still trying to get back to that every 1229 00:56:17,180 --> 00:56:14,099 other week schedule but there's just too